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ge frig wiring starter relay  Rating:  Rating
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 Posted: Thu Sep 28th, 2006 02:34 am
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philw
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please advise on how to wire the 3n'1 starter relay, what wires do you connect the two power wires to. the model # for the ge is tbx25znr.

red, white, and black are already connected to the compressor. there are two black wires left.

thanks,

philw

Last edited on Thu Sep 28th, 2006 02:37 am by philw

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 Posted: Thu Sep 28th, 2006 03:07 am
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AccApp
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What wires were connected to the old start device? Connect them to the black wires without terminals. Did it have a run capacitor?



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 Posted: Thu Sep 28th, 2006 03:54 am
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Crouching Tiger

 

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Be wary of these temporary start devices.  The capacitor may not match your application and cause problems with the compressor.  In addition, the overload protector cannot be mounted next to the compressor casing which will open the circuit in the event of an overheat situation.  I use the theory that if it doesn't start with identical relay/overload the unit came with, than there is a problem that cannot be fixed with a 3n'1.  

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 Posted: Fri Sep 29th, 2006 11:31 am
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nickfixit
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The Tiger is wise, heed his warning of the evils of the 3in1 relay. It is what we in the trade  call a "big steaming pile of monkey dung". It is only a band-aid that will lead to a future that includes a warm refrigerator and a burned out compressor.

Please use the OEM, factory part.

Your extra 2 wires are the 120v supply to the compressor, I doubt you need to worry about polarity.

Nick



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 Posted: Fri Sep 29th, 2006 12:04 pm
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nickfixit wrote: It is only a band-aid that will lead to a future that includes a warm refrigerator and a burned out compressor.

Please use the OEM, factory part.

Your extra 2 wires are the 120v supply to the compressor, I doubt you need to worry about polarity.

Nick


It is a band-aid. Used in emergencies waiting for a factory order part.

Having found a few installed as a permanent fix by other techs, I WAS surprised that Whirlpool covered the warranty when the compressor later failed as a result... They want to pay for it, I'll replace it...



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 Posted: Sat Sep 30th, 2006 03:15 am
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nickfixit
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Well put! no real use other than emergency, short term, service. Unfortunately, most people who use them are leaving them on and calling the unit repaired.

I'll have to see if I can search my past posts for all my comments on the 3-in-1.

I've pretty much ranted like a crazy man against their use. I'm sure their are some great posts mixed in. Maybe they can use them to finally put me in the loony bin where I belong.


The manufacturers are Asswipes for replacing the compressors under warranty when some nitwit cooked it down with a 3-in-1.

see I'm doing it again.....
:soapbox:

Last edited on Sat Sep 30th, 2006 03:16 am by nickfixit



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 Posted: Sat Sep 30th, 2006 01:20 pm
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nickfixit wrote: The manufacturers are Asswipes for replacing the compressors under warranty when some nitwit cooked it down with a 3-in-1.

I dunno... Something about my sense of integrity made me at least ask Whirlpool if they would cover the failed compressor with the 3-in-1 attached by another company's tech...

When I found the above 3-in 1 device, and when I found the screw in the evaporator on another call where another company's tech replaced the evaporator cover after a defrost problem, I asked the customer why the first tech didn't repair his mistake.

"They don't do sealed systems repairs, but said I wouldn't have to pay since the sealed system is covered by the 5 year warranty," was the answer in both cases.

I called Whrilpool about the 3-in1, and they replaced the compressor. I DID NOT call Frigidaire about the hole in the evaporator. I told the customer I was sorry, I wasn't touching this one with a ten foot pole, and I left the evaporator cover off so I couldn't catch the blame for the screw hole.

Long story short: The Store ended up replacing the unit because no one wanted to deal with the first tech's mistake, including the tech's manager after the tech admitted to doing it...

See there, Nick, now you got me preaching on the soapbox about integrity...

Attachment: soapbox.gif (Downloaded 144 times)



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 Posted: Sat Sep 30th, 2006 05:00 pm
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I see alot of people dont like these 3n1 hardstarts.
ive seen then save many dead compressors they work great, they are cost effective and easy to install, Ive seen freezers run for 10 years with one. Ive recently fitted probably 15 whirlpool refs that were 2 or 3 years old with them and had no problem.
for my money, it dosnt get any better



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 Posted: Sat Sep 30th, 2006 06:23 pm
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nickfixit
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Well..

For starters you have removed the run capacitor from many compressors that were made to have them.

Secondly, all those compressors you serviced no longer have over-temperature protection.

Third, you have added a start capacitor to compressors that were not designed to have one.

Fourth, you may have made the unit draw more amperage than it was designed to handle.

Fifth, when one of these does fail, the next tech may refuse to honor the compressor warranty, and blame you for using an non-approved part.

The factory relays are just as cheap and easy to install as any 3-in-1 part.

Nick

Pegi posted this in the Dojo...


 

from Captain Toolhead...ASN



 

Field use of hard-start kits on Electrolux products



 

THIS in an important technical bulletin regarding the use of



 

hard-start kits on Electrolux products specifically and to alert



 

technicians to the risk when installing any hard-start kit.



 

The use of hard-start kits on Electrolux refrigeration products



 

has resulted in several reported fires inside the machine compartment.



 

Long-term use of a hard-start kit where the compressor



 

is pulling well over the maximum allowable amperage can



 

cause the hard-start kit to overheat and melt.



 

Compressors, when operated from a test cord and checked



 

with a wattmeter or amp test meter, found to be pulling over the



 

rated current listed on the data sheet, should not have a hardstart



 

kit installed to force the compressor ro run. This is not safe!



 

In addition, a field technician is not doing the consumer a favor



 

in the long term by leaving the hard-start kit installed and



 

advising that the unit is somehow “fixed.”



 

If you encounter a compressor that’s not starting on its own



 

(relay and overload) start package, test the compressor with a



 

test cord to determine if it’s running at or below its rating.



 

If you determine that you need a new start package and the



 

correct package isn’t available, a hard-start kit may be used for



 

a few days to accommodate the customer and get the refrigerator



 

cooling. However, do not permanently replace the OEM start



 

package with a hard-start kit.



 

Here’s some basic information:



 

1. When the compressor is pulling over 200 watts but below



 

400 watts on the test cord, the compressor may be failing or you



 

may have a very high head pressure. You will need to tap into



 

the sealed system.



 

2. If you have normal pressure and high current, the compressor



 

is failing — replace the compressor.



 

3. When there is high head pressure, there may be a restriction



 

or air in the system caused by a low-side leak.



 

4. If the compressor is pulling over 400 watts, it should be



 

replaced. Again, installing a hard-start kit at this high current



 

draw will allow both the wiring in the refrigerator and the hardstart



 

kit to overheat — not a good thing




 

Last edited on Sat Sep 30th, 2006 06:28 pm by nickfixit



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 Posted: Sat Sep 30th, 2006 07:53 pm
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no start capacitor? whats the "3" in 3-in-1 stand for?
so what if the warranty is voided, too bad no one around here does crappy whirlpool warranty. so ive actually made life easier for many people. saved them alot of money and saved them from rotting food.
and why did the capacitor die the first time? crappy parts... i use the 3-in-1's because i enjoy seeing compressors run.
and that bulliten was specifically talking about electrolux, something i would never have in my home...



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 Posted: Sat Sep 30th, 2006 09:05 pm
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nickfixit
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If you use a 3-in-1, and the condenser fan gets blocked or fails, the compressor will cook to death. The factory part provides over-temperature protection, the 3-in-1 doesn't.

The 3-in-1 adds a start capacitor where one does not belong, and a 3-in-1 lacks a run capacitor which many compressors were designed to have .

Why not use a new factory part? Those 3-in-'s are not any cheaper, and they sure as hell aren't better quality. I find them bad all the time.

Nick

Last edited on Sat Sep 30th, 2006 09:07 pm by nickfixit



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 Posted: Sat Sep 30th, 2006 10:52 pm
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It always comes back to this  -  if the compressor doesn't start with what it was

designed with then there is a problem.  If you want to get into a good test practice

buy yourself a megohmeter, this will test the compressor windings insulation and let

 you now if it is going to last. 

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 Posted: Sat Sep 30th, 2006 11:24 pm
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nickfixit
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That is a good way to go. Those are pretty pricey, I've been looking at them on the internet. I would feel real bad forgetting one of those at someones home, and not getting it back.

Where do you get the specs for the winding insulation, and how does the temperature of the compressor effect the readings you would get?

Nick



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Samurai Appliance Repair Man
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Supco makes a megger that's good enough for our purposes, $99... at least it was a few years ago. It reads out on a vertical LED scale and indicates good, borderline, bad. Indispensable instrument for assessing questionable compressors-- a megger reading is the gold standard for assessing compressor motor winging integrity.

Last edited on Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 03:11 am by Samurai Appliance Repair Man



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Brando wrote: no start capacitor? whats the "3" in 3-in-1 stand for?
so what if the warranty is voided, too bad no one around here does crappy whirlpool warranty. so ive actually made life easier for many people. saved them alot of money and saved them from rotting food.
and why did the capacitor die the first time? crappy parts... i use the 3-in-1's because i enjoy seeing compressors run.
and that bulliten was specifically talking about electrolux, something i would never have in my home...


How to respond to a statement like this?

Nick said something about a run capacitor, not the start capacitor, slight difference you know...

As Whirlpool warranty servicer, I have a hard time explaining to customers why their warranty has been voided by the previous tech -- now that they are facing an expensive compressor change-out...

Technical bulletins often contain useful information that cross-over from one brand to another, especially if basic fundamentals of operation are the same...



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 Posted: Sun Oct 1st, 2006 05:03 pm
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I found that Supco megger on the internet, about $125. It looks like a great tool to have, I'm getting me one of those.

Thanks for the tip Samurai.



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 Posted: Sun Oct 1st, 2006 11:04 pm
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The supco website has alot of information based on compressors and starting devices.  TPI also sells meggers either digital or analogue.  Generally, a reading of 20 megohms is bad news, typically a burnt system.  They apply a specific voltage through the windings and find any breakdown in the insulation.

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Crouching Tiger wrote: It always comes back to this  -  if the compressor doesn't start with what it was

designed with then there is a problem.  If you want to get into a good test practice

buy yourself a megohmeter, this will test the compressor windings insulation and let

 you now if it is going to last. 


Right if it dosnt start with what its designed to, the answer is either replace that $200 compressor if you can even get a replacement, or a $20 3-in-1 and let her rip tater chip, no need for an expensive megohmeter. (and in this case im talking about units with no factory warranty.)



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 Posted: Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 03:42 am
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 Brando sure seems familiar in his postings...hummmm:?....where have we heard this type of postings before...



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Samurai Appliance Repair Man
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Sho 'nuff starting to wonder that m'damnself. :armed::cop:



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:runover:



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Keinokuorma
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Talking about Glitch? I'd have loved to see what HE wrote to get you people so annoyed...



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 Posted: Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 03:18 pm
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Pegi
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Yea, wish I had saved a copy now, annoyed is not the word I would use...:poison:



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Keinokuorma
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Perhaps it's better I don't know. Otherwise I might be experiencing deep annoyment too. :X



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Samurai Appliance Repair Man
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I think vitutus is too strong a word. It was more along the lines of a mosquito just starting to prick... one swat, problem gone.



Just another dead bug.

Last edited on Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 05:53 pm by Samurai Appliance Repair Man



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Keinokuorma
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Samurai Appliance Repair Man wrote: Just another dead bug.
r0d3nt?



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obviously some people have no shame in taking someone's hard earned money and running down the road promoting their self proclaimed genius on the next poor bastard.

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nickfixit
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Keinokuorma, That's a fine looking beer on your posts, looks a tad too foamy thou...

It make me thirsty just looking at it.

Nick



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Keinokuorma
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1/2 of the bottle was poured into the glass quickly, sometimes I wonder how the head of suds can hold so much liquid beer, that this glass would be filled halfway up when the suds settled. But it was a wonderfully good beer, strong and still very soft but full of flavor. Just had a bottle of 2005 Kasteel Bruin, 11% vol. Nice experience too.



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Sorry to post again so late after the last posts. Im not glitch, if thats what u think anyway i have some pretty good info. I got it about 7 days ago so again sorry so late. 

07/11/06 

Technical Bulletin # 071106-BS
Product – RCO Series 3 N’ 1 

In response to rumors that are being communicated by some Appliance Manufacturer’s about the Supco RCO 3 N’ 1 to the service field, I offer the following facts and information. 
  • The RCO series are UL recognized, UL file number E146162. Visit http://www.ul.com or contact UL @ 847-272-8800.
  • Supco has been manufacturing the RCO series successfully for over 40 years.
  • The RCO series are not faulty, nor do they cause a compressor to fail prematurely.
  • By installing the correct RCO properly it will improve the starting torque of the compressor. Providing the compressor is in Good Working Condition.
  • The RCO can be installed as a temporary or permanent electrical component.
  • Appliance Manufacturers require authorized replacement parts for they’re in warranty equipment. The Supco RCO series are not authorized by any Appliance Manufacturers.
  • The RCO is a reliable, safe, solid state, field proven, after market component that almost all Appliance and HVAC&R service professionals stock on their trucks to keep their customers equipment up and running.
 
Bill Smith
HVAC&R Product Manager




I gather unless its under factory warranty, then they are fine to use, IF you match it to the compressor.
oh here is a little more info I just found.

Are Compressor Hard Start Devices Needed?
Compressor hard start devices are a luxury item for service technicians to use in rectifying a myriad of compressor start problems.  It is true that the majority of hard start device applications result from the marginal voltages delivered by electric utilities during peak demand periods.  As the predominant application is air conditioning, the hard start device can serve as an insurance policy for compressor starts when voltages drop to 90% of rated line conditions.  The ability to ensure a compressor start under low voltage conditions can serve to minimize the number of “nuisance” service calls and allow a service contractor to focus on true problem events. 

As the air conditioning industry has expanded and diversified, numerous types and models of air conditioning units and compressors have entered the marketplace.  This diverse proliferation has resulted in the need to provide a one-size-fits-all compressor start device.  Investigations recently undertaken by SUPCO indicate that a start device should be closely matched to the compressor, and a one size for all approach may actually cause damage to a compressor if applied incorrectly.  All SUPCO technology employs the appropriate safeguards to ensure against compressor damage due to misapplied start devices.  This situation does not exist for most other start device manufacturers.



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Crouching Tiger

 

Joined: Sun Nov 13th, 2005
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That is very useful information taken from the Supco website for someone who is not

familiar with the use of 3n'1 start devices as they apply to domestic refrigeration

units, i.e. fridges.  However, the majority of fridges made these days do not contain

start capacitors, only run capacitors.  The use of these 3n'1 start devices will in fact

hinder the overall performance of the compressor windings due to overheating.  I

cannot say how many fridges in my area have been equipped with a 3n'1 but I can

say that the fridges I have made a service call on with a 3n'1 installed, the result is a

failed compressor.  The length of time it ran before it failed was anywhere from 3

months to about a year. 

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 Posted: Wed Oct 11th, 2006 03:09 am
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32nd Post
Brando
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Joined: Sun Jun 26th, 2005
Location: Anadarko, Oklahoma USA
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I guess im just lucky. in the past 4 years the only time a 3 in 1 has not worked was when the compressor was locked smooth up. and ive NEVER had to go back and recheck any of the units.
you may think "of course, If you effed up my icebox I wouldnt call you back." well its either me or sears, however sears is at least an hour away from our service area and they only come here one time a week. and if that day is no good for you... too bad.
so i believe that the 3 in 1's work.  and I tip my hat to supco and thier gift to the world The 3N1.



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