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Kenmore direct drive bangs during rinse/spin cycle

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Posted: Wed Apr 6th, 2005 05:40 am

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steve
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Kenmore 110.29852991

Started making banging/thumping noises during the rinse or spin cycles. Empty no less.

The coupler was intact but pretty much worn out. Replaced it and now the noise is even louder then before.
Doesn't happen during agitation and agitator works but as soon as the drum starts to spin up the pounding starts. The drum does spin up and the brake works when you release the cover switch.

Any suggestions?

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Posted: Wed Apr 6th, 2005 05:52 am

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Samurai Appliance Repair Man
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Check the drive block. If the notches are worn smooth, that's your problem.

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Posted: Wed Apr 6th, 2005 06:28 am

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steve
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Will do, I started pulling the agitator to check things and stopped when it looked like I'd have to go buy new seals if I pulled it out. Didn't want to do that without a good reason.

Thanks,

Steve

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Posted: Wed Apr 6th, 2005 07:43 am

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steve
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I guess I'm not sure what worn smooth means here. If you mean the notches are rounded out then that doesn't seem to the the problem. Or am I missing something.

Steve

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Posted: Wed Apr 6th, 2005 11:34 am

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Budget Appliance Repair
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NO, your not missing anything, the drive block is OK......

Can you locate the source area of where the noise is coming from?

From your picture it looks like spin basket is ok, maybe the plastic filter thingy on the bottom of the spin basket as came loose. Is the balance ring at the top of the spin basket attached good and tight?

Here's a link to a picture of the spin basket and outer tub, ref#12 is the lint filter.
CLICK HERE

Leave the agitator off and put machine into a spin cycle and see if noise is still there. This will eliminate the possiblity of the agitator top section being loose and banging.

William Burk (Willie)
Willie's Budget Appliance Repair
Eureka, CA 95501

P.S. -- Samurai, do you know if this board recognizes html code, and if so how to make it do so. I really hate those long links that screw up the formating of the board

Here's what I tried for but couldn't get it to work

<a href="http://www.somereallylongurlcode.com">CLICK HERE</a>

so the words "CLICK HERE" only show instead of the long url

Last edited on Wed Apr 6th, 2005 12:18 pm by

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William Burk (Willie)
Willie's Budget Appliance Repair
Eureka, CA 95501

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Posted: Wed Apr 6th, 2005 12:24 pm

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Samurai Appliance Repair Man
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Budget Appliance Repair wrote:
P.S. -- Samurai, do you know if this board recognizes html code, and if so how to make it do so. I really hate those long links that screw up the formating of the board

Here's what I tried for but couldn't get it to work

<a href="http://www.somereallylongurlcode.com">CLICK HERE</a>

so the words "CLICK HERE" only show instead of the long url

HTML does not work for security reasons, that's the way Wowbb is designed. Even in other boards where HTML can be enable, such as vbulletin, they strongly discourage it.

It's no biggie, though because links are even easier to do. Just highlight the text you want to make a link and then click the "link" button in the post toolbar (it's the globe with a chain link in it). You can see I've edited your post and did that. If you click edit on that same post, you'll see the code that's there. It's inserted automatically, although you can manually edit code, too.

The Help section is short, sweet, and to-the-point. Check it out the section on posting for more info.

Last edited on Wed Apr 6th, 2005 04:39 pm by Samurai Appliance Repair Man

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Posted: Wed Apr 6th, 2005 04:35 pm

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steve
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Budget Appliance Repair wrote:
Can you locate the source area of where the noise is coming from?

From your picture it looks like spin basket is ok, maybe the plastic filter thingy on the bottom of the spin basket as came loose. Is the balance ring at the top of the spin basket attached good and tight?

Leave the agitator off and put machine into a spin cycle and see if noise is still there. This will eliminate the possiblity of the agitator top section being loose and banging.

Both the balance ring and lint filter are on solid.

The banging comes from below the spin basket in the center.

It still does it with the agitator off as soon as I activate the timer in rinse or spin.
The banging is quite loud. Is it common for something in the trans to let go and flop around but still agitate and spin.
It's almost like the wig wam is bashing around while the basket is being spun up

I'll try changing setting for agitation and see if the duration between thumps changes.

Thank you all,
Steve

Last edited on Wed Apr 6th, 2005 04:35 pm by steve

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Posted: Wed Apr 6th, 2005 04:43 pm

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Samurai Appliance Repair Man
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Check the plastic cam on the basket drive:

If it's broken, it'll cause the no-spin. no-agitate problem, too. Can be very noisy.

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Posted: Wed Apr 6th, 2005 11:58 pm

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steve
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Mine looks a little different but I don't see anything obviously broken. The cam moves about 10-15 degrees and does make noise at the limits that might be the banging it you put some power behind it. It has some slop around the center. I assume this cam couples to the clutch below and spins the tub. What does it engage with?

Just in case, here's the top of the transmission and clutch.

Steve

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Posted: Thu Apr 7th, 2005 12:42 am

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Samurai Appliance Repair Man
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Whoa! Great pics! Everything looks normal there. We've eliminated everything else, that pretty much leaves the transmission, compadre.

Moment of truth time: repair or replace? Call the ball.

Last edited on Thu Apr 7th, 2005 01:03 am by Samurai Appliance Repair Man

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Posted: Thu Apr 7th, 2005 12:59 am

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The Seven
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Your upper photo shows the square finger tip of the plastic cam is worn out.
During the spin cycle, the finger should engage securely to the square (should be rectangular) holes on the clutch side.
Due to the wear of the tip, the finger fails to engage securely and bangs onto the end part of the spring on the clutch side.

You need a new cam!

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Posted: Thu Apr 7th, 2005 01:06 am

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steve
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Thanks, I figure the least I can do is let you see what I see since I don't know what to look for

I'm going to hang the motor back on the trans while it's out of the chassis and see what it does before making that call.
How difficult is getting individual parts if I attempt a repair?
I assume we are now talking 4 or 5 beer level if I open it up. I'm sure I'm up to it but it's not something I'd usually tackle without a service manual.

Steve

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Posted: Thu Apr 7th, 2005 01:07 am

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Samurai Appliance Repair Man
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I knew someone else would jump in eventually!

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Posted: Thu Apr 7th, 2005 01:11 am

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steve
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The Seven wrote:
During the spin cycle, the finger should engage securely to the square (should be rectangular) holes on the clutch side. Due to the wear of the tip, the finger fails to engage securely and bangs onto the end part of the spring on the clutch side.

Are those the slots in the base of the clutch plate?

Replacing the cam looks like I just have to remove the retaining c-clip and pull it out. I hope that's all that's wrong.

Thanks,

Steve

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Posted: Thu Apr 7th, 2005 03:14 am

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The Seven
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steve wrote:
The Seven wrote:
During the spin cycle, the finger should engage securely to the square (should be rectangular) holes on the clutch side. Due to the wear of the tip, the finger fails to engage securely and bangs onto the end part of the spring on the clutch side.

Are those the slots in the base of the clutch plate?

Replacing the cam looks like I just have to remove the retaining c-clip and pull it out. I hope that's all that's wrong.

Thanks,

Steve

Yes, you get it at last (hopefully).

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Posted: Thu Apr 7th, 2005 06:41 am

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steve
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I been trying to figure out how the clutch would work if the cam engaged with the slots. That would eliminate the clutch shoe from the process.

After I took the cam off the brake, it seems to me that the cam engages the longer of the two arms on the clutch shoe where the spring is, latching onto it and coupling the basket drive to the clutch case.
I inspected the cam and I can still see the mold and flashing marks in the surface as well as contact grease transfer in the face that engages the clutch shoe. There is minor wear in the face of the thin finger that would contace the cap on the clutch shoe spring. Less than a 1/64" deep and about a 1/4" long. I really don't think the cam is worn out.

I hooked up the motor to the trans, it doesn't bang but it does run rough, almost like some teeth are chewed up in a gear. Not having three hands at the time, I couldn't put any load on the clutch disk to make sure.

Do you have a better diagram of the internals of the trans than the small gif on msn that you could share? Perhaps, I misunderstood the repair or replace question. I assumed you were asking about the transmission not the washer.

I'll be happy to take pictures if they would be useful for your site.

Steve

Last edited on Thu Apr 7th, 2005 06:55 am by steve

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Posted: Thu Apr 7th, 2005 11:10 am

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Budget Appliance Repair
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Looking at your pictures, I would say the brake cam looks fine to me, I don't know what "The Seven" is seeing that I'm not.

Question for Samurai:
You said "If it's broken, it'll cause the no-spin. no-agitate problem, too. Can be very noisy."

You were speaking of the brake cam. Can you tell me how a broken brake cam will cause a "no-agitate problem too"? I believer your mistaken, the brake cam has nothing to do with agitate.

Another thing that could be the problem, The brake drum could have came loose, turn the brake cam to release the brakes and try to move the outer brake drum, it should be solid no movement.

From everything you have told us, I'm really leaning towards a transmission problem and most likely a problem so severe that it's not worth trying to repair the transmission. (reason being if it's the input shaft/worm gear and pinion gear, you have to purchase the lower tranmission case with the two gears, the worm gear/input shaft is pressed in. This one part of the transmission cost almost as much as a new transmission)

I think what you will find if you open the transmission is that the main pinion gear that the input shaft/worm gear engages has broken some teeth off. I have seen one do this before. It agitates ok with just a little noise because turning in the agitate direction doesn't produce the load that spin does. In the spin cycle the load on the transmission is much heavier and you get the loud banging everytime the broken tooth area comes around.

I bet the banging is at constant intervals, right?

William Burk (Willie)
Willie's budget Appliance Repair
Eureka, CA 95501

Last edited on Thu Apr 7th, 2005 11:15 am by Budget Appliance Repair

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Posted: Thu Apr 7th, 2005 03:28 pm

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Moostafa
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Budget Appliance Repair wrote: Question for Samurai:
You said "If it's broken, it'll cause the no-spin. no-agitate problem, too. Can be very noisy."

Hello, William, my querying friend. Our most dear and gracious host, Samurai Appliance Repair Man, is, eh, indisposed for the time being.

As you know, the Samurai is an independent contractor for your Ameedican CIA so-called "black operations." In fact, it was in this line of work that I was blessed to have met him. The Samurai headed up a CIA task force here in Afghanistan with the mission of procuring high-grade Afghanni heroin for re-sale in Ameedican urban areas to fund other CIA black operations. It also enriched many locals, such as myself, who were personally involved in helping the Samurai procure his cargo. In the course of assisting the Samurai, I went from being a burned-out Mujahideen left-over with nothing, to a wealthy breeder of fine camels and yaks with four wives and 17 children, all living under my own tent. Truly, Allah has blessed us through the Samurai and your Ameedican CIA. Allahu Akbar!

But, alas, I have some sad news to report. It seems he has been personally testing some of the heroin that I helped him procure and he is currently in one of your Ameedican rehabilitation houses. Let us put aside our religious differences, even though you and all infidels are going straight to the hot place, and pray to Allah, the merciful and compassionate, for the speedy recovery and return of our most dear and gracious host.

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Allahu Akbar!

Moostafa

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Posted: Thu Apr 7th, 2005 06:09 pm

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The Seven
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steve wrote:
After I took the cam off the brake, it seems to me that the cam engages the longer of the two arms on the clutch shoe where the spring is, latching onto it and coupling the basket drive to the clutch case.
Steve

I would concur with your observation. But the cam does show some deformation and wear if compared with the good one ashown by Samurai.

I hooked up the motor to the trans, it doesn't bang but it does run rough, almost like some teeth are chewed up in a gear.
Steve

From this further experiment, I would concur with Samurai and Willie that the trans could be the cause.

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Posted: Thu Apr 7th, 2005 06:55 pm

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steve
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The Seven wrote:
I would concur with your observation. But the cam does show some deformation and wear if compared with the good one ashown by Samurai.
I believe the difference is they are two different part designs. Perhaps there are two different clutches, one larger in diameter than the other. The part I have is not worn down in any sigficant way.

After looking at some exploded diagrams and from the way the trans feels I'm guessing I'm missing a few teeth from the spin gear. The roughness doesn't happen often enough to be the pinion and the amount of roughness would mean a large part of the pinion would be gone.

I can't tell but it might be this large plastic gear in this picture.

Steve

Last edited on Thu Apr 7th, 2005 06:55 pm by steve

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